Romney BS this morning but believed by all cons

[wbcoleman]

I don't think God chooses winners and loser
. kentay .

Have you ever heard of "God's chosen people" ?

What do you suppose G-d chosen people were chosen for?

Who me? It's been awhile since I read any of that. I suppose they were chosen for several purposes, but if I had to sum it up I'd say that they were chosen to be protected so they could inform mankind of what God has in mind for them.

You shouldn't have brought this up.  The one and only thing they were chosen for was to receive the torah.

[RWE]

Weren't they also chosen to inhabit the land of Canaan?

[wbcoleman]

Weren't they also chosen to inhabit the land of Canaan?

Semantically you can say so but theologically the "chosenness" refers to the giving of the torah.

[kentay]

In very early times, many nations of the Middle East had a chief national god who looked after his people and protected them from enemies. Because the god was more powerful than the people, he was considered to have chosen his people, rather than the other way around. Over time, nations were conquered, demonstrating that their god was not powerful after all. As a result, most nations moved on and adopted the gods of their conquerors.

The Israelites, perhaps because they were almost always militarily weak and so did not require of God that he maintain their national independence, moved gradually towards monotheism under their national G-d, who was held to have chosen them. During times of adversity, Jews believed that their God was punishing them for wrongdoing, thus avoiding the dilemma of a God who could not protect them.

Thus, the Jews became the Chosen People of God.

One must always remember that men wrote the Holy Books and what was happening in history when they wrote the words down. kentay

The Jewish people are descended from Jacob (Israel), the grandson of Abraham, with whom God established an everlasting covenant.
 Genesis 17:7 - And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.

 === It just means 'chosen' to keep more laws. God offered the covenant to all the nations, but all refused to accept it unconditionally. Finally the Jews agreed. They 'chose' God, so God 'chose' them in return. 'chosen' doesn't mean 'superior' or anything like that. Judaism teaches that all humans are equal.

[wbcoleman]

One must always remember that men wrote the Holy Books and what was happening in history when they wrote the words down. kentay

=== It just means 'chosen' to keep more laws. God offered the covenant to all the nations, but all refused to accept it unconditionally. Finally the Jews agreed. They 'chose' God, so God 'chose' them in return. 'chosen' doesn't mean 'superior' or anything like that. Judaism teaches that all humans are equal.

kentay's statement about chosenness is completely correct.  Of course, as a faith commitment, we hold the torah to be divinely given rather than being the result of human composition.

[RWE]

I don't think God chooses winners and loser
. kentay .

Have you ever heard of "God's chosen people" ?

i was responding here to your lack of knowledge regarding choosing winners and losers.
I refer you to
Deuteronomy 7:7-8
"The LORD set his heart on you and chose you, even though you didn't outnumber all the other people. You were the smallest of all nations.
You were chosen because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors. So he used his mighty hand to bring you out. He freed you from slavery under Pharaoh (the king of Egypt)."

Here is an instance wherein God chose the winners (Israelites) and the losers (the Pharaoh and his army). Obviously Moses required God's intervention in parting the Red Sea on behalf of the winners.

[wbcoleman]

I don't think God chooses winners and loser
. kentay .

Have you ever heard of "God's chosen people" ?

i was responding here to your lack of knowledge regarding choosing winners and losers.
I refer you to
Deuteronomy 7:7-8
"The LORD set his heart on you and chose you, even though you didn't outnumber all the other people. You were the smallest of all nations.
You were chosen because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors. So he used his mighty hand to bring you out. He freed you from slavery under Pharaoh (the king of Egypt)."

Here is an instance wherein God chose the winners (Israelites) and the losers (the Pharaoh and his army). Obviously Moses required God's intervention in parting the Red Sea on behalf of the winners.

rwe, I doubt that this theological discussion advances the thread, which basically involves clara's misunderstanding of the role of natural law in American political philosophy.

[RWE]

I don't think God chooses winners and loser
. kentay .

Have you ever heard of "God's chosen people" ?

i was responding here to your lack of knowledge regarding choosing winners and losers.
I refer you to
Deuteronomy 7:7-8
"The LORD set his heart on you and chose you, even though you didn't outnumber all the other people. You were the smallest of all nations.
You were chosen because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors. So he used his mighty hand to bring you out. He freed you from slavery under Pharaoh (the king of Egypt)."

Here is an instance wherein God chose the winners (Israelites) and the losers (the Pharaoh and his army). Obviously Moses required God's intervention in parting the Red Sea on behalf of the winners.

rwe, I doubt that this theological discussion advances the thread, which basically involves clara's misunderstanding of the role of natural law in American political philosophy.

Not only that, but she calls a fundamental American ideal "BS" and seems to think only Republicans would believe it. I'd like to see the Democrats state in their Party Platform. "The Declaration of Independence is BS."

[wbcoleman]

I don't think God chooses winners and loser
. kentay .

Have you ever heard of "God's chosen people" ?

i was responding here to your lack of knowledge regarding choosing winners and losers.
I refer you to
Deuteronomy 7:7-8
"The LORD set his heart on you and chose you, even though you didn't outnumber all the other people. You were the smallest of all nations.
You were chosen because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors. So he used his mighty hand to bring you out. He freed you from slavery under Pharaoh (the king of Egypt)."

Here is an instance wherein God chose the winners (Israelites) and the losers (the Pharaoh and his army). Obviously Moses required God's intervention in parting the Red Sea on behalf of the winners.

rwe, I doubt that this theological discussion advances the thread, which basically involves clara's misunderstanding of the role of natural law in American political philosophy.

Not only that, but she calls a fundamental American ideal "BS" and seems to think only Republicans would believe it. I'd like to see the Democrats state in their Party Platform. "The Declaration of Independence is BS."

Perhaps she's forgotten that it's the Declaration, not our beloved Constitution, which declares, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

[kentay]

One must always remember that men wrote the Holy Books and what was happening in history when they wrote the words down. kentay

=== It just means 'chosen' to keep more laws. God offered the covenant to all the nations, but all refused to accept it unconditionally. Finally the Jews agreed. They 'chose' God, so God 'chose' them in return. 'chosen' doesn't mean 'superior' or anything like that. Judaism teaches that all humans are equal.

kentay's statement about chosenness is completely correct.  Of course, as a faith commitment, we hold the torah to be divinely given rather than being the result of human composition.

WBC, don't get me wrong I too believe that men's words in our holy books are divinely given I just don't believe everything was divinely given, that male subjectivity was sometimes applied in man's, his tribe, his women and his religious favor.. kentay

[wbcoleman]

One must always remember that men wrote the Holy Books and what was happening in history when they wrote the words down. kentay

=== It just means 'chosen' to keep more laws. God offered the covenant to all the nations, but all refused to accept it unconditionally. Finally the Jews agreed. They 'chose' God, so God 'chose' them in return. 'chosen' doesn't mean 'superior' or anything like that. Judaism teaches that all humans are equal.

kentay's statement about chosenness is completely correct.  Of course, as a faith commitment, we hold the torah to be divinely given rather than being the result of human composition.

WBC, don't get me wrong I too believe that men's words in our holy books are divinely given I just don't believe everything was divinely given, that male subjectivity was sometimes applied in man's, his tribe, his women and his religious favor.. kentay

I'm not about to try and dictate anybody else's faith commitments.

[Woody]

I knew this was coming.  The left wing wackos want to rewrite the Declaration.


I am disappointed.  Clara has not worked a Bush reference in yet.

[clistensprechen]

Our rights don't come from government, they come from our creator.

Guess what, guys--our Constitution can take those rights away via Due Process, so it IS a matter of what the government giveth, the government can take away, legally.

You haven't read the Declaration of Independence recently, have you?

The Declaration, addressed to the government of King George, a king who was also head of a state religion, isn't law. The Constitution is.

The Declaration provides the philosophical basis for the establishment of the American republic.

It did not provide the philosophical basis for the U.S. Constitution, prior to which was the Articles of Confederation which the Declaration would have had any philosophical connection with.  The Articles failed, which is why we have a Constitution. FAIL

[clistensprechen]

Our rights don't come from government, they come from our creator.

Guess what, guys--our Constitution can take those rights away via Due Process, so it IS a matter of what the government giveth, the government can take away, legally.

And you don't understand the Due Process Clause either.

You appear to understand it even less because you're under the mistaken notion that the Declaration of Independence is something other than a declaration.

The Due Process Clauses have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with taking away anybody's rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_Process_Clause

The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution each contain a Due Process Clause. The Supreme Court of the United States interprets the Clauses as providing four protections: procedural due process (in civil and criminal proceedings), substantive due process, a prohibition against vague laws, and as the vehicle for the incorporation of the Bill of Rights.

Wiki isn't any kind of bible or other holy scripture and is subject to many defects.

Via Due Process, the government can deprive a person of

* Life (and cons, more than any other faction, approve of the Death Penalty)
*Liberty (as in incarceration)
*Pursuit of Happiness, as in Property (you don't even have to be a criminal to be subject to Eminent Domain property seizure).

...which addresses your Declaration of Independence rot in the other thread, as these are listed as unalienable rights therein.

[Woody]

So Clara, it is your contention that our creator(s) did not bestow us with inalienable rights?  That government did?