Hey, Ken...

[clistensprechen]

Good to know, Mike. Considering that there's theoretically only one God and actually a bazillion different religions, then theoretically God instituted all the religions for the specific purpose of warring with each other claiming to be the one true religion while all others are false.  Some God, that. 

And thus the generalization is apt. Any other characterization is not accurate.

I understand your confusion, Clara.  I even (kind of) understand your use of "bazillion".  It represents frustration and definite LACK OF UNDERSTANDING of Christianity in general.  There are a very small number of "mainstay" items that define Christianity.  They include the Virgin Birth of Jesus, the Resurrection, and the appearance of Jesus to his followers after the Resurrection.  The New Testament is words, strung together by men.  Thus certain passages can be interpreted slightly differently.  An example is the Sabbath.  Seventh-Day Adventists interpret that to mean Saturday, and they're quite emphatic and insistent about it.  I don't happen to subscribe to that, but I still accept Adventists as my brothers and sisters in the faith. So much for differences, Clara.  Even Jews are totally acceptable to me as men and women who worship the same God.  Are there "faiths" that I don't recognize?  Sure there are.  Islam is a fine example.  There are others as well...Shintoism ...Buddhism...all seeking to recognize/discover a connection of mankind to a higher plane of existence.  If you do believe that humans just accidentally came into existence ...pond scum...itsy bitsy atoms bumping into one another...that's your privilege.  I don't happen to believe that.  Which "religion" is right?  We'll each have to live with our own convictions on that one, won't we?
Peace, Clara.

mike, this is off-topic but I'm curious.  Why do you believe the sabbath is the first day of the week rather than the seventh?

The Romans ordained it to be so. You wanna know why the Romans ordained it so?  I got your facts right here.

The ROMANS??

Take a really wild guess at where our calendar comes from.

That's irrelevant.  Our calendar says Sunday is the first day of the week, not the seventh.

Your calendar is Roman.

Now pay close attention: the first day of the week isn't Jesusday, Sabbath, or Christday.  It's SUNday.  Got a clue yet?

[wbcoleman]

Good to know, Mike. Considering that there's theoretically only one God and actually a bazillion different religions, then theoretically God instituted all the religions for the specific purpose of warring with each other claiming to be the one true religion while all others are false.  Some God, that. 

And thus the generalization is apt. Any other characterization is not accurate.

I understand your confusion, Clara.  I even (kind of) understand your use of "bazillion".  It represents frustration and definite LACK OF UNDERSTANDING of Christianity in general.  There are a very small number of "mainstay" items that define Christianity.  They include the Virgin Birth of Jesus, the Resurrection, and the appearance of Jesus to his followers after the Resurrection.  The New Testament is words, strung together by men.  Thus certain passages can be interpreted slightly differently.  An example is the Sabbath.  Seventh-Day Adventists interpret that to mean Saturday, and they're quite emphatic and insistent about it.  I don't happen to subscribe to that, but I still accept Adventists as my brothers and sisters in the faith. So much for differences, Clara.  Even Jews are totally acceptable to me as men and women who worship the same God.  Are there "faiths" that I don't recognize?  Sure there are.  Islam is a fine example.  There are others as well...Shintoism ...Buddhism...all seeking to recognize/discover a connection of mankind to a higher plane of existence.  If you do believe that humans just accidentally came into existence ...pond scum...itsy bitsy atoms bumping into one another...that's your privilege.  I don't happen to believe that.  Which "religion" is right?  We'll each have to live with our own convictions on that one, won't we?
Peace, Clara.

mike, this is off-topic but I'm curious.  Why do you believe the sabbath is the first day of the week rather than the seventh?

The Romans ordained it to be so. You wanna know why the Romans ordained it so?  I got your facts right here.

The ROMANS??

Take a really wild guess at where our calendar comes from.

That's irrelevant.  Our calendar says Sunday is the first day of the week, not the seventh.

Your calendar is Roman.

Now pay close attention: the first day of the week isn't Jesusday, Sabbath, or Christday.  It's SUNday.  Got a clue yet?

Nope.. If SUNday is the first day of the week, then SATURday should be the seventh.

[clistensprechen]

Saturn's Day certainly is indeed the 7th day of the week on the Roman calendar.  It goes like this:

First day is Sun's Day, with no other god coming before it like in The Ten Commandments. Thank Constantine for that.

Second day is Moon's Day, Sun's opposite; in the Levant, during the Mithraic Wars in which Rome was victorious, Moon went by the name of Sin, and to Sin was to countermand the Sun.

Third day is Tiew's Day, and Tiew was a lesser Teutonic god that was on the calendar established for Roman Britain's use. It's Mars' Day in Europe.

Fourth day is Woden's Day, and Woden is a greater Teutonic god, used on the calendar for Roman Britain's use. In Europe, it's Mercury's Day.

Fifth day is Thor's Day, and if you're a comic hero buff you already know who Thor is.  But he, too, is Teutonic for the calendar intended for Roman Britain's use.  In Europe, it's Juno's Day.

Sixth day is Fria's Day, a lesser Teutonic god and you got it--on the calendar intended for use in Roman Britain. In Europe, it's Venus' Day.

Seventh day is Saturn's Day, so yes--Saturday is the seventh day.  Count 'em--1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

[wbcoleman]

Saturn's Day certainly is indeed the 7th day of the week on the Roman calendar.  It goes like this:

First day is Sun's Day, with no other god coming before it like in The Ten Commandments. Thank Constantine for that.

Second day is Moon's Day, Sun's opposite; in the Levant, during the Mithraic Wars in which Rome was victorious, Moon went by the name of Sin, and to Sin was to countermand the Sun.

Third day is Tiew's Day, and Tiew was a lesser Teutonic god that was on the calendar established for Roman Britain's use. It's Mars' Day in Europe.

Fourth day is Woden's Day, and Woden is a greater Teutonic god, used on the calendar for Roman Britain's use. In Europe, it's Mercury's Day.

Fifth day is Thor's Day, and if you're a comic here buff you already know who Thor is.  But he, too, is Teutonic for the calendar intended for Roman Britain's use.  In Europe, it's Juno's Day.

Sixth day is Fria's Day, a lesser Teutonic god and you got it--on the calendar intended for use in Roman Britain. In Europe, it's Venus' Day.

Seventh day is Saturn's Day, so yes--Saturday is the seventh day.  Count 'em--1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

So how does the sabbath get moved from the seventh day to the first day?  That contradicts the whole metaphor of G-d resting.

[clistensprechen]

Saturn's Day certainly is indeed the 7th day of the week on the Roman calendar.  It goes like this:

First day is Sun's Day, with no other god coming before it like in The Ten Commandments. Thank Constantine for that.

Second day is Moon's Day, Sun's opposite; in the Levant, during the Mithraic Wars in which Rome was victorious, Moon went by the name of Sin, and to Sin was to countermand the Sun.

Third day is Tiew's Day, and Tiew was a lesser Teutonic god that was on the calendar established for Roman Britain's use. It's Mars' Day in Europe.

Fourth day is Woden's Day, and Woden is a greater Teutonic god, used on the calendar for Roman Britain's use. In Europe, it's Mercury's Day.

Fifth day is Thor's Day, and if you're a comic here buff you already know who Thor is.  But he, too, is Teutonic for the calendar intended for Roman Britain's use.  In Europe, it's Juno's Day.

Sixth day is Fria's Day, a lesser Teutonic god and you got it--on the calendar intended for use in Roman Britain. In Europe, it's Venus' Day.

Seventh day is Saturn's Day, so yes--Saturday is the seventh day.  Count 'em--1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

So how does the sabbath get moved from the seventh day to the first day?  That contradicts the whole metaphor of G-d resting.

It didn't get moved. Sabbath is on Saturday.  And here's a reminder that Jews who celebrate Sabbath on the first day of the Roman week are considered "Christianized", especially since the Roman calendar is a solar calendar and the traditional Jewish calendar is lunar.

[wbcoleman]

Saturn's Day certainly is indeed the 7th day of the week on the Roman calendar.  It goes like this:

First day is Sun's Day, with no other god coming before it like in The Ten Commandments. Thank Constantine for that.

Second day is Moon's Day, Sun's opposite; in the Levant, during the Mithraic Wars in which Rome was victorious, Moon went by the name of Sin, and to Sin was to countermand the Sun.

Third day is Tiew's Day, and Tiew was a lesser Teutonic god that was on the calendar established for Roman Britain's use. It's Mars' Day in Europe.

Fourth day is Woden's Day, and Woden is a greater Teutonic god, used on the calendar for Roman Britain's use. In Europe, it's Mercury's Day.

Fifth day is Thor's Day, and if you're a comic here buff you already know who Thor is.  But he, too, is Teutonic for the calendar intended for Roman Britain's use.  In Europe, it's Juno's Day.

Sixth day is Fria's Day, a lesser Teutonic god and you got it--on the calendar intended for use in Roman Britain. In Europe, it's Venus' Day.

Seventh day is Saturn's Day, so yes--Saturday is the seventh day.  Count 'em--1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

So how does the sabbath get moved from the seventh day to the first day?  That contradicts the whole metaphor of G-d resting.

It didn't get moved. Sabbath is on Saturday.  And here's a reminder that Jews who celebrate Sabbath on the first day of the Roman week are considered "Christianized", especially since the Roman calendar is a solar calendar and the traditional Jewish calendar is lunar.

clara, why did you jump in and get started on this?  You apparently didn't bother to read what mike wrote in the first place to provoke my question:

Thus certain passages can be interpreted slightly differently.  An example is the Sabbath.  Seventh-Day Adventists interpret that to mean Saturday, and they're quite emphatic and insistent about it.  I don't happen to subscribe to that, but I still accept Adventists as my brothers and sisters in the faith. So much for differences, Clara. 

[clistensprechen]

I jumped in to set the record straight.

What I posted was the record, for the record.

Seventh Day Adventists are indeed correct--on the Roman calendar we still use today. Traditional Jewish Sabbath is on the 7th lunar "day".

[wbcoleman]

I jumped in to set the record straight.

What I posted was the record, for the record.

Seventh Day Adventists are indeed correct--on the Roman calendar we still use today.

Yeah, so are the Jews.  My question was to ask Mike why he disagreed and felt the sabbath should be on the first day.  You're just providing a distraction, sweetheart.

[clistensprechen]

Mike can just read the facts and weep, hon, for all I care.  My mission is to state the facts. Don't ever expect me to speak for Mike or for anyone else--they all can speak for themselves.  I just post the facts.

[wbcoleman]

Mike can just read the facts and weep, hon, for all I care.  My mission is to state the facts. Don't ever expect me to speak for Mike or for anyone else--they all can speak for themselves.  I just post the facts.

clara, you're wonderful, but I don't think you have a lot to offer on why the Christian church moved their sabbath to Sunday.

[clistensprechen]

Mike can just read the facts and weep, hon, for all I care.  My mission is to state the facts. Don't ever expect me to speak for Mike or for anyone else--they all can speak for themselves.  I just post the facts.

clara, you're wonderful, but I don't think you have a lot to offer on why the Christian church moved their sabbath to Sunday.

Constantine, son of the Caesar of Britain, did it.

Like I said. What you got from me is the truth, the whole historical truth, and nothing but the historical truth. There exists no other factual explanation.

http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/days/

[MichaelH]

Good to know, Mike. Considering that there's theoretically only one God and actually a bazillion different religions, then theoretically God instituted all the religions for the specific purpose of warring with each other claiming to be the one true religion while all others are false.  Some God, that. 

And thus the generalization is apt. Any other characterization is not accurate.

I understand your confusion, Clara.  I even (kind of) understand your use of "bazillion".  It represents frustration and definite LACK OF UNDERSTANDING of Christianity in general.  There are a very small number of "mainstay" items that define Christianity.  They include the Virgin Birth of Jesus, the Resurrection, and the appearance of Jesus to his followers after the Resurrection.  The New Testament is words, strung together by men.  Thus certain passages can be interpreted slightly differently.  An example is the Sabbath.  Seventh-Day Adventists interpret that to mean Saturday, and they're quite emphatic and insistent about it.  I don't happen to subscribe to that, but I still accept Adventists as my brothers and sisters in the faith. So much for differences, Clara.  Even Jews are totally acceptable to me as men and women who worship the same God.  Are there "faiths" that I don't recognize?  Sure there are.  Islam is a fine example.  There are others as well...Shintoism ...Buddhism...all seeking to recognize/discover a connection of mankind to a higher plane of existence.  If you do believe that humans just accidentally came into existence ...pond scum...itsy bitsy atoms bumping into one another...that's your privilege.  I don't happen to believe that.  Which "religion" is right?  We'll each have to live with our own convictions on that one, won't we?
Peace, Clara.

mike, this is off-topic but I'm curious.  Why do you believe the sabbath is the first day of the week rather than the seventh?

Not really off-topic...well, sort of, but Clara changed the subject in a flash...
I understand the problem of the "Sabbath".  I chose conventional Protestantism when I became a Christian, thus I chose to use Sunday as the day that I attended church and worshiped.   Nothing more complex than that.  I've attended Seventh-Day Adventist services (because my wife and I were specifically invited by a student) and they get really exercised about what day is the Sabbath.  I don't.  I've also attended services at Temple De Hirsch Sinai in Seattle because we were invited by a very old friend, Herb Bridge whose son was one of the Rabbis there.  Incidentally, you might be interested in following a link or two about Admiral Herb Bridge.  We have a quite interesting (at least to me) history together going back a couple of generations.  Another interesting (again, perhaps only to me) connection is our family's shared connection to Rabbi Daniel Lapin (he's easy to google, too) who my youngest daughter works for as his office manager on Mercer Island in Washington.  He spoke at her wedding (a Christian function) a couple of years ago, and brought the house down with his humor involving Christianity v Judaism

[MichaelH]

This probably isn't particularly interesting (to anyone but me) but when Rabbi Lapin spoke at our daughter's wedding I chatted with him afterward.  The wedding featured some pretty good music, and --en passant -- I mentioned to him that if I'd been asked, I might have brought my accordion and played "hatikvah" for the service.  Rabbi said, "I'm glad you didn't!" I said, "you don't like accordion music?"  His reply startled me a bit.  It was, "I can't stand a national anthem for Israel that doesn't -- even once -- mention G-d.  To me, Hatikvah is a haunting piece of music that I thoroughly enjoy playing regardless of it's shortcomings (if it has any, that is).

[wbcoleman]

This probably isn't particularly interesting (to anyone but me) but when Rabbi Lapin spoke at our daughter's wedding I chatted with him afterward.  The wedding featured some pretty good music, and --en passant -- I mentioned to him that if I'd been asked, I might have brought my accordion and played "hatikvah" for the service.  Rabbi said, "I'm glad you didn't!" I said, "you don't like accordion music?"  His reply startled me a bit.  It was, "I can't stand a national anthem for Israel that doesn't -- even once -- mention G-d.  To me, Hatikvah is a haunting piece of music that I thoroughly enjoy playing regardless of it's shortcomings (if it has any, that is).

You have to remember that the Labor Zionists who founded the State of Israel were all communists and atheists.  They even prevented the name of G-d from appearing in the Declaration of Independence [although an oblique reference was forced in at the last minute].  Of course, in the light of the last sixty-odd years of Zionist history, one might say that the Omnipresent was.... uh, present.

[clistensprechen]

...
Not really off-topic...well, sort of, but Clara changed the subject in a flash...
I understand the problem of the "Sabbath".  I chose conventional Protestantism when I became a Christian, thus I chose to use Sunday as the day that I attended church and worshiped.   Nothing more complex than that.  I've attended Seventh-Day Adventist services (because my wife and I were specifically invited by a student) and they get really exercised about what day is the Sabbath.  I don't.  I've also attended services at Temple De Hirsch Sinai in Seattle because we were invited by a very old friend, Herb Bridge whose son was one of the Rabbis there. 
...

Umm, Clara didn't change the subject--Clara just injected historical fact especially because Clara's suspicion is now confirmed that the two in this dialogue resulted in what's called "buffet Christianity"...believers who personally pick and choose to suit personal theology that doesn't fit the standard of record.

This is of never-ending fascination to me: among the "God-said-it-I-believe-it-That-settles-it" crowd there's a large population of "God said to worship on the Sabbath but we get to pick what day that is" buffet believers. Christians and Jews share one religious characteristic: searching for, finding, and exploiting to the maximum--loopholes in "God's law".
 :applause: